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    Bolte bridge

    This image was made when I ran a 1 on 1 workshop a couple of years ago.

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by chz370 View Post
    This image was made when I ran a 1 on 1 workshop a couple of years ago.

    Why is the Keystone Distortion not corrected?

    WW

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    Why is the Keystone Distortion not corrected?

    WW
    Thanks for your feedback William. Can you please elaborate?

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by chz370 View Post
    Thanks for your feedback William. Can you please elaborate?
    Certainly.

    If I understand the opening post correctly, the image made by yourself when you were providing a workshop. (i.e. you were the teacher).

    I was asking the reason as to why an image like this would be presented by a teacher in a workshop, without the Keystone Distortion having been corrected.

    ***

    If you are asking me to elaborate by clarifying what Keystone Distortion is: in this image it is the convergence of what should be parallel and vertical lines, which are neither parallel nor vertical.

    This is a result of the Camera's Elevation being low and the Lens's Axis being tilted upward.

    This is a quick and rough corrected version and the original is on top:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	18527208-lg.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	153.8 KB 
ID:	83122

    WW

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    Certainly.

    If I understand the opening post correctly, the image made by yourself when you were providing a workshop. (i.e. you were the teacher).

    I was asking the reason as to why an image like this would be presented by a teacher in a workshop, without the Keystone Distortion having been corrected.

    ***

    If you are asking me to elaborate by clarifying what Keystone Distortion is: in this image it is the convergence of what should be parallel and vertical lines, which are neither parallel nor vertical.

    This is a result of the Camera's Elevation being low and the Lens's Axis being tilted upward.

    This is a quick and rough corrected version and the original is on top:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	18527208-lg.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	153.8 KB 
ID:	83122

    WW
    You are correct William. I had to looked up what keystone is as English isn't my first language.

    It isn't perfectly vertical as you have rightly pointed it out. It was a beginning workshop for long exposure night photography.

    Do have any other feedback except that keystone?

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    BtW, the distortion was intentionally, I placed the camera low pointed it upward to create that effect such as below image

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    From purely a personal of view I think the original is a more pleasing image. The corrected looks just a bit too square.

    There will always be a vanishing point for parallel lines pointing away from you whether that be on a horizontal plane or vertical and in this instance they don't look out of place. I totally understand the point WW has made but if it's an effect the OP was after then that explanation should be enough.

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by closei View Post
    . . . I totally understand the point WW has made but if it's an effect the OP was after then that explanation should be enough.
    WW did NOT make any point.

    He asked a question: "Why is the Keystone Distortion not corrected?"

    The OP then asked for clarification and that was provided.

    The OP then answered the question asked.

    Yes the answer is certainly enough, please do NOT imply that it was not.

    WW

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by closei View Post
    From purely a personal of view I think the original is a more pleasing image. The corrected looks just a bit too square.

    There will always be a vanishing point for parallel lines pointing away from you whether that be on a horizontal plane or vertical and in this instance they don't look out of place. I totally understand the point WW has made but if it's an effect the OP was after then that explanation should be enough.
    Thanks Closei! You feedback is much appreciated.

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    WW did NOT make any point.

    He asked a question: "Why is the Keystone Distortion not corrected?"

    The OP then asked for clarification and that was provided.

    The OP then answered the question asked.

    Yes the answer is certainly enough, please do NOT imply that it was not.

    WW
    That point is taken!

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    WW did NOT make any point.

    He asked a question: "Why is the Keystone Distortion not corrected?"

    The OP then asked for clarification and that was provided.

    The OP then answered the question asked.

    Yes the answer is certainly enough, please do NOT imply that it was not.

    WW
    Hi William, your critique us much appreciated and your question is legit. I just didn't understand your original question as I didn't know that keystone is until I googled it.

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by chz370 View Post
    You are correct William. I had to looked up what keystone is as English isn't my first language.
    It isn't perfectly vertical as you have rightly pointed it out. It was a beginning workshop for long exposure night photography.
    Do have any other feedback except that keystone?
    BtW, the distortion was intentionally, I placed the camera low pointed it upward to create that effect such as below image
    Thanks for the answers. I have been viewing several of your other threads.

    I anticipated that English is not your native tongue and that is why I explained what Keystone Distortion is - and in any case many technical terms are not often used nowadays, mainly because there are not as many structured and prescriptive Photography Curriculums, with examinations and qualifications

    I understand the main reason for the workshop you gave.

    ***

    Other feedback:

    The keystone distortion adds to a feeling of enormity, size and power of the bridge.

    Like closei, I also think that in this case it makes for a better image, than if the Keystone Distortion were corrected. I only came to that opinion once I made the correction and viewed both images large.

    I make a lot of images of Architecture, mainly interiors of Places of Worship and exteriors, mainly of Building Façades and Bridges. For me, it is a constant battle choosing between correcting Keystone distortion or to use a Tilt Shift Lens or use the Distortion to make an impact.

    Additionally, I have taught Photography at TAFE and High Schools and I have held many of Master Classes, (mainly Portraiture for the Master Classes).

    This is the background for me asking you why you did not correct the Keystone Distortion.

    ***

    I would be interested to know the Technical Details, mainly Exposure Parameters (Shutter Speed ISO and Aperture) and the Lens’s details and the Post Production Software.

    Of particular interest are the Starbursts of the lights. These are all very clean, I anticipate these have been enhanced with Post Production. I think that is very good. But I think that the original file must be very clean to get such a good result, hence my particular interest in the Lens (and the Focal Length used if it is a Zoom Lens) and the Exposure especially the Aperture that was used.

    I think Composition is very good and I additionally like the Framing of the three lights on the far side of the water – those lights are well placed, taking the Viewer’s Eye back to the bottom middle after their eyes go over the bridge: but I think that the steel structure, bottom right is annoying and I would consider cloning it out.

    It seems that you lost detail in a small area of burn at the bottom of the two main stays (the green vertical poles), these two areas are minor distractions and I would address those.

    I like the manner in which you have dealt with the texture of the clouds, and as much as I can determine from the low res image, there is adequate DoF and detail throughout.

    I generally quite like the image's visual appeal.

    I can understand how it could be used as a training tool for Long Exposure Night Time Photography. I further understand the elements which make for a good "beginning" workshop so we do not bombard the Student with too many details, all at once, but rather build layer upon layer of knowledge gained.

    WW

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by closei View Post
    That point is taken!
    Appreciate your quick response. Thank you.

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by chz370 View Post
    Hi William, your critique us much appreciated and your question is legit. I just didn't understand your original question as I didn't know that keystone is until I googled it.
    Understood.

    My response and my annoyance was directed to closei, not you.

    closei has responded.

    My view is that matter is now closed as is my annoyance now removed.

    WW

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    Thanks for the answers. I have been viewing several of your other threads.

    I make a lot of images of Architecture, mainly interiors of Places of Worship and exteriors, mainly of Building Façades and Bridges. For me, it is a constant battle choosing between correcting Keystone distortion or to use a Tilt Shift Lens or use the Distortion to make an impact.

    Additionally, I have taught Photography at TAFE and High Schools and I have held many of Master Classes, (mainly Portraiture for the Master Classes).

    This is the background for me asking you why you did not correct the Keystone Distortion.
    I totally understand where you were coming from as it would be a rookie mistake for not correcting horizontal and vertical lines in any landscape and cityscape photos.



    I would be interested to know the Technical Details, mainly Exposure Parameters (Shutter Speed ISO and Aperture) and the Lens’s details and the Post Production Software.

    Of particular interest are the Starbursts of the lights. These are all very clean, I anticipate these have been enhanced with Post Production. I think that is very good. But I think that the original file must be very clean to get such a good result, hence my particular interest in the Lens (and the Focal Length used if it is a Zoom Lens) and the Exposure especially the Aperture that was used.
    It was taken in late April 2017, quite a cold autumn night.

    Canon 5D MK3 with 24-70mm F2.8L II lens
    24mm focal length
    30s at F11 and ISO 100

    I use Lightroom for exposure, tonal corrections, highlights and shadow corrections etc. I use photoshop for local adjustments and touch up if needed.


    I think Composition is very good and I additionally like the Framing of the three lights on the far side of the water – those lights are well placed, taking the Viewer’s Eye back to the bottom middle after their eyes go over the bridge: but I think that the steel structure, bottom right is annoying and I would consider cloning it out.

    It seems that you lost detail in a small area of burn at the bottom of the two main stays (the green vertical poles), these two areas are minor distractions and I would address those.
    I was trying to show that I was in a fenced off area of the bridge, but now you mentioned it, it does appear a little distracted from the whole image.

    You are spotted on regarding the lost of details at the bottom of the vertical poles as there were a little blown out. I should have take another under exposed shot and blended it in in post.

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    By the way, this is another image in the same location, and with multiple exposures so I could blended the clipping highlights.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1A4A7979-HDR-Edit.jpg 
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ID:	83123

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by chz370 View Post
    By the way, this is another image in the same location, and with multiple exposures so I could blended the clipping highlights.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1A4A7979-HDR-Edit.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	150.5 KB 
ID:	83123
    Very pretty, love those contrasting colours! I'm also curious as to the 'clean' star effect. Is that through post processing or have you some other magic filter on the lens?

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by chz370 View Post
    . . .
    It was taken in late April 2017, quite a cold autumn night.
    Canon 5D MK3 with 24-70mm F2.8L II lens
    24mm focal length
    30s at F11 and ISO 100
    I use Lightroom for exposure, tonal corrections, highlights and shadow corrections etc. I use photoshop for local adjustments and touch up if needed.
    Thanks.
    I have not seen starbursts made with that lens.
    Really excellent.
    I use LR and PS in a similar two stage Post Processing - I am certain I can appreciate what you did.

    I have a peculiarity for Starburst, and I tend to choose lenses for that task: the main criterion being an even number of aperture blades. One favourite lens for this is my EF 50 F/1.4. My general experience is that zoom lenses render Starbursts poorly (less defined) by contrast to Prime Lenses and this is especially so if the Zoom Lens has an odd number of Aperture Blades.

    (Comment below is also referring to the question by closei)

    A Starburst will generally be made from a pinpoint light source in the scene when the overall palette is dark. Starbursts are an attraction, if not a passion for Landscape Photographers who specialize or like in Night Time Shooting. I like shooting outdoor Architecture, at night. Starbursts can be used to accent the scene.

    Lenses with an EVEN number of blades will render that number of star points; and Lenses with an ODD number of Blades will render double that amount of Star Points.

    As I mentioned, Prime Lenses are generally better for quality Starbusrts. Typically one needs to stop down to about F/11 or F/16. There are other Image Quality considerations when working around F/16, or smaller.

    These (and others) are the many reasons why I am interested that the 24 to 70 2.8 MkII was used. Firstly 18 is a very large number of points (the lens has 9 Blades, but already knew that the lens used must have had 9 Blades, so I was very curious as to which lens it was) and secondly each point is so very clear.

    Typically this clarity is an unusual result for a Zoom Lens, especially more unusual when it is used at its widest zoom setting: and it was obvious that the Lens was in the 16mm to 30mm Focal Length Range - additionally the users of Prime Lenses are few and far between, so it was a good assumption to bet a Mars Bar that a Zoom Lens would have been used . . .

    I have used this 24 to 70 MkII lens and I was very impressed with it: but I chose to buy the (original) 24 to 70 F/2.8L instead, the main reason being that the (original) lens zooms in and out THROUGH the lens hood, creating the most effective Lens Hood coverage: I don’t know of any other zoom lens with this design and it is very useful for the type of work for which I use my 24 to 70/2.8 – which is mainly Available Light Portraiture, often shooting into the sun and not with it.

    ***

    I like the framing of the second image – it places the Bridge more as an item IN THE SCENE rather the the ITEM OF THE SCENE. In the second image the foreground ‘mess and dirt’ is not distracting.

    I think that the COMPOSITION of the first image has much more PUNCH.

    WW

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by closei View Post
    Very pretty, love those contrasting colours! I'm also curious as to the 'clean' star effect. Is that through post processing or have you some other magic filter on the lens?
    See my above for some relevant information on Starburst Photography.

    WW

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    Re: Bolte bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    See my above for some relevant information on Starburst Photography.

    WW
    Thanks, yes I was aware that stopped down lenses could give that result but wasn’t aware that odd number blades would double the star points. Do you understand the logic behind this effect?

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