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    Second Shooter

    Question: Is there an expectation that Second Shooters shouldn't use the images they take for someone else in their own portfolio?

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    Re: Second Shooter

    I don't know the rules on this one but I'm certainly interested to hear others thoughts here on it.

    I'd assume being that it's still your work, you should be free to use it in your portfolio???? But maybe it's frowned upon or in the conditions of you being on the shoot you can't use or you loose the rights to the images or their use?

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    Re: Second Shooter

    i only second shot for a little while and this was in america. i had to shoot using the photographer's cards and turned them all in at the end of the event. he would send them off to his editor for post processing and i'd get copies later. once he found out i was interested in editing i also got the originals. i was allowed to use it in my portfolio, but not for advertising myself or to sell. i owned the copyright, but had signed a contract with the photographer stating what i was and wasn't allowed to do.

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    Re: Second Shooter

    Worth talking to the main photographer, and have a clear indication before you shoot of what the expectations are, along with the use of images.

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    Re: Second Shooter

    Quote Originally Posted by roicead View Post
    i only second shot for a little while and this was in america. i had to shoot using the photographer's cards and turned them all in at the end of the event. he would send them off to his editor for post processing and i'd get copies later. once he found out i was interested in editing i also got the originals. i was allowed to use it in my portfolio, but not for advertising myself or to sell. i owned the copyright, but had signed a contract with the photographer stating what i was and wasn't allowed to do.
    Interesting, good info there. Makes it difficult to get a portfolio started if you sign away the your rights to use them. I guess you could get away with using them in hard copy portfolios, and not spray them over the internet..
    Thanks!

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    Re: Second Shooter

    Quote Originally Posted by Eerik Sandstrom View Post
    Interesting, good info there. Makes it difficult to get a portfolio started if you sign away the your rights to use them. I guess you could get away with using them in hard copy portfolios, and not spray them over the internet..
    Thanks!
    i can put them on the internet or in a portfolio as representation of my work, just not for sale.

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    Re: Second Shooter

    Quote Originally Posted by Eerik Sandstrom View Post
    Question: Is there an expectation that Second Shooters shouldn't use the images they take for someone else in their own portfolio?
    There might be many expectations, but if you are involved in business, either as a second shooter or as an employer/hire agent that should be all spelled out in a contract.

    That contract need not be complex, but it should be clear.

    In AUS, I have hired (as subcontractors) and also employed photographers: depending upon the job and my business's requirements at the time those people had no, limited or full access to the images that they made and that was quite clear to them before they took on the work.

    In the case of employment, i.e. someone who is an "employee" (which I don't think you are asking about), then it is generally the case that what is produced in the course of that employment, is the sole property of the employer: for example a teacher creates an exam paper for a school exam the employer owns that, not the teacher.

    Similarly, a staff photographer, such as a forensic photographer working for a police force - the images that they take are not their own property.

    As a general guide and for another example, the Wedding Studios that my company owned subcontracted photographers and also Lab-techs/editors: generally the Photographers used some selected images that they made for their own portfolio provided that they credited the Studio Name for which they were working, but the editors were not allowed to use the images that they edited. The images to be used were OK by me - and generally I OKed all that were chosen and that was because the Photographers were not silly about their choices.

    I have also shot for other photographers and in each case I have used their cards and handed those cards over at the end of the shoot: that was my request when I took on the work.

    Many years ago I did work as an employee and as per above all the work was the employer's property, though by-line credits were always given when the image was published: that courtesy seems often omitted nowadays.

    The Laws of Copyright and Usage Rights do differ from county to country as do the Laws involving what is 'property' as a result of work done by an employee, sub-contractor and (in the USA) those involved in "work for hire".

    Your question seems predicated on widening your own portfolio based upon the work that you do for other photographers - that sometimes is seen as a Catch 22, so maybe you can look at the problem from a different angle and put more effort into creating your own work and less into getting work from other photographers and worrying about if you can use those images or not.

    WW

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    Re: Second Shooter

    Solid advice there William, thanks for taking the time to explain that. i think you nailed it at the end, focusing on building a portfolio, time is better spent sourcing your own work, having been offered to be a second shooter, i wanted to know what was reasonable to expect.

    Thanks

    Eerik



    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    There might be many expectations, but if you are involved in business, either as a second shooter or as an employer/hire agent that should be all spelled out in a contract.

    That contract need not be complex, but it should be clear.

    In AUS, I have hired (as subcontractors) and also employed photographers: depending upon the job and my business's requirements at the time those people had no, limited or full access to the images that they made and that was quite clear to them before they took on the work.

    In the case of employment, i.e. someone who is an "employee" (which I don't think you are asking about), then it is generally the case that what is produced in the course of that employment, is the sole property of the employer: for example a teacher creates an exam paper for a school exam the employer owns that, not the teacher.

    Similarly, a staff photographer, such as a forensic photographer working for a police force - the images that they take are not their own property.

    As a general guide and for another example, the Wedding Studios that my company owned subcontracted photographers and also Lab-techs/editors: generally the Photographers used some selected images that they made for their own portfolio provided that they credited the Studio Name for which they were working, but the editors were not allowed to use the images that they edited. The images to be used were OK by me - and generally I OKed all that were chosen and that was because the Photographers were not silly about their choices.

    I have also shot for other photographers and in each case I have used their cards and handed those cards over at the end of the shoot: that was my request when I took on the work.

    Many years ago I did work as an employee and as per above all the work was the employer's property, though by-line credits were always given when the image was published: that courtesy seems often omitted nowadays.

    The Laws of Copyright and Usage Rights do differ from county to country as do the Laws involving what is 'property' as a result of work done by an employee, sub-contractor and (in the USA) those involved in "work for hire".

    Your question seems predicated on widening your own portfolio based upon the work that you do for other photographers - that sometimes is seen as a Catch 22, so maybe you can look at the problem from a different angle and put more effort into creating your own work and less into getting work from other photographers and worrying about if you can use those images or not.

    WW

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    Re: Second Shooter

    To be a good second shooter, start with communicating to photographers and shoot for them is a great way. Appreciate their works, business reputation and their images and want to learn more are some good qualities for being a second shooter.

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    Re: Second Shooter

    As a new photographer, this forum site helps me a lot. Thanks for sharing with us.

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