Bounce flash

[Shaddsi]

Just wondering if anyone uses a sto-fen, fong or bounce card when shooting weddings..

I have a reception coming up and they are the worst for taking photos at (well i find them bad anyway) and i want to make them a little easier..

[Smorter]

In my opinion - definitely not Simon, all of those infernal contraptions are a waste of money!

These photos below were all using standard bounce flash, nothing attached to the camera. Bounce flash technique is far more important than infernal contraptions imo. You can easily replicate the look you would get from a flash modifier with selective bouncing, and you can save money and not look odd with something like a Fong Dong on your flash

If you must use something, there is a device called the "Flip it" by Joe Demb, which is the only device that is mildly respected because it allows control over light.

The best bounce flash photography is when people don't realise you've used flash

I was at a large venue earlier this year which was an absolute nightmare, very high ceiling, orange lights, yellow spot lights *shudder* but bouncing and dragging the shutter still gave me usable results I found (in my opinion :D)

http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p165781296-4.jpg
http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p41853415-4.jpg
http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p394954317-4.jpg
http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p103640891-3.jpg

Those are probably the worst case type shots you can do in a venue with poor lighting, but I'll post up some more right now of an actual Wedding reception

[Scott Jay]

I disagree, I have shot several receptions and gallery openings with a sto-fen on my 580EXII and it made my life a LOT easier.

[Smorter]

Scott apologises in advance if I come across as aggressive, I don’t mean it, but flash diffusers/modifiers like the Stofen Omnibounce are a pet peeve of mine which I get quite passionate about :D I like a good debate about them though so even though I'm arguing with you I actually enjoy it :)

The issue is that the laws of physics dictate they are useless. If using a Stofen makes your output better, it may suggest some deficiency in your bounce flash technique that the Stofen is helping to mask. I reckon it's better to identify the source of any issues rather than using an overpriced piece of plastic as a crutch

I don’t know why my photos above did not display correctly (they weren’t very good anyway), but the below shots were from a Receptionish event I did last Saturday. These were just simple bounce flash, no sto-fen, no fong dong, no bounce card, no whatever. I really can’t envisage what else a bounce diffuser/modifier would add to the photos I have. They aren't the best photos, but from a lighting perspective, I don't think the light could be any softer than it already is, I'm just not sure what a bounce diffuser or modifier or bounce card will add to these situations ???

That’s just my opinion, I would love to be proved wrong though because at the moment at home I have two Sto-fen Omnibounces that I use as battery holders and would really like to put them to good use as they cost me a good $40 to get both of them

http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p468876143-4.jpg
http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p56475882-4.jpg
http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p121712443-4.jpg
http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v5/p525454620-4.jpg

[Ausnapper]

I agree / disagree now to get one thing clear I do not shoot weddings so take my view with a pinch of salt, however a few things

The one thing that everyone is trying to achieve is "SOFT LIGHT" so if you diffuse the flash in some way whatsoever then you are creating a softer light, good bad the fact is it is diffused. Of course a large wall or ceiling is doing just that diffusing the light. A small Stofen is doing that, A Gary Fong is doing that, a piece of paper put in the back of a flash is doing that.

The other point is the ability to control the light, this is where bouncing obviously works better than a stofen, which just puts a diffused light out.

What if the reception is outside in a garden ? There goes the walls (perhaps) so you need a way to diffuse the light. This may be an area that you can use other items.

And finally try to take the flash off camera from what I have seen reading many,many websites forums etc... this look when done right can be awesome.

Best of luck to all of you wedding photographers it is a tough gig :D

[Smorter]

Hi Aus, yes I agree with you, the aim of the game is usually to achieve soft, "unflashed" looks

You're right sometimes bouncing is not appropriate, but here's the issue: if bouncing is not appropriate, neither is a Stofen, nor a bounce card, nor a Gary Fong Dong. These contraptions rely on walls and ceilings to work

All these contraptions work by redirecting light onto nearby ceilings and walls. If there are no ceilings or walls, a Stofen is useful for only one thing: reducing effective range

And I guess this comes down to the point I am making, if you can achieve the same or better results with bouncing, why would you waste money and time on something like a Stofen or a Bounce Card, when using plain bouncing appropriately, will get you equivalent if not superior results

[Ausnapper]

You're right sometimes bouncing is not appropriate, but here's the issue: if bouncing is not appropriate, neither is a Stofen, nor a bounce card, nor a Gary Fong Dong. These contraptions rely on walls and ceilings to work

All these contraptions work by redirecting light onto nearby ceilings and walls. If there are no ceilings or walls, a Stofen is useful for only one thing: reducing effective range

Smorter again I state my uneducated opinion, however the "Gary Fong Dong" is it's own diffuser that is the whole point of it ? The way it is made is that the light hits the roof of the unit and is then reflected and diffused in a 360' pattern through a diffused panel.

Agree on the bounce card as its use is for bouncing, yet they still mention it for portrait and bounce forward, it is slightly redirected and diffused rather than direct from the flashes bulb.

As for the stofen yes it will reduce your light output and the fact you are shooting through a frosted piece of plastic it would have to diffuse the light in some part. It is like when you shoot through a light tent it must have a similar effect ?

That's my thoughts having only read and seen them being used, I can not say for sure and as such do not want to disagree with you this is just how I see it :confused:

[Charismatic]

I've bought a few soft-boxes over the past few months - Just to give them the benefit of the doubt and to simply try and better my photography.

$200+ Later I can easily tell you that bouncing works better - Is easier, and you don't have to keep re-positioning some stupid looking white thing that stands out like crazy.

I tried a Sto-Fen too and didn't see the difference personally, and before you say "Well maybe it was how you were using it" - I've seen alot of people use them at Weddings and Events and have seen the finished results and can honestly say there was no difference from mine to theirs, Sto-Fen/Non-Sto-Fen.

Never tried the gary, or the flip it. But I'd imagine they would be the same.

Depending on the venue of course, I find I shoot 90% of my flash shots straight up or slighty backwards/over the shoulder. How about you Smorter?

[pepe]

Smorter settings and lens info for your shots please

[DG77]

Main benefit of the Gary Fong Light Sphere is that you don't need any surface to bounce off as the light bounces off it's built in dome, so it works ok outside.... to a point.

It excels in smaller rooms where it's able to do a really good job of spreading the light right around the room, but can struggle a bit in large convention centres and stuff.

It's other benefit is that if it's attached to something like a 580EX it doesn't matter if you're shooting portrait or landscape you simply point the flash head up and take the shot.

I used to use (and often still do if I don't want the hassle of people asking what that big thing is on my flash) the 580EX built in bounce card, but it really only works when you're shooting landscape so you need to gaffa tape a business card or something to the other side of the flash if you want to shoot portrait, which kind of makes you look like a bit of a backyarder.

[Smorter]

Smorter settings and lens info for your shots please

Hi Pepe, I'll get back to you on that one tonight, at work atm, will post when I get home


Smorter again I state my uneducated opinion, however the "Gary Fong Dong" is it's own diffuser that is the whole point of it ? The way it is made is that the light hits the roof of the unit and is then reflected and diffused in a 360' pattern through a diffused panel.

Agree on the bounce card as its use is for bouncing, yet they still mention it for portrait and bounce forward, it is slightly redirected and diffused rather than direct from the flashes bulb.

As for the stofen yes it will reduce your light output and the fact you are shooting through a frosted piece of plastic it would have to diffuse the light in some part. It is like when you shoot through a light tent it must have a similar effect ?

That's my thoughts having only read and seen them being used, I can not say for sure and as such do not want to disagree with you this is just how I see it :confused:

lol Aus nah feel free to disagree it's what makes these discussions interesting, otherwise it's quite boring if everyone has same opinions :)

This is my opinion, but I feel you've been duped by some of the marketing. Diffusion has nothing to do with what is in front of the flash, or what material the flash travels through. You could put a million pieces of Stofen in front of the flash, and it will be still as undiffused.

Diffusion depends on two elements: Distance to subject and Size of Light Source.

Size of light source is obvious, that's why studios use those massive softboxes, because the larger the light source, the more diffuse the light is on the subject, all other things being equal.

For example, do you agree if you put your face under one of those big fluorescent light rectangular lights and casing they have on trains, that this will be softer than if someone shoined a touch in your face? It would because the fluorescent light is much larger than a touch's head. So with equal distance, the fluorescent light is more diffuse.

A real life example is this:

A cloudy day. On a cloudy day the light is more diffuse around us, NOT because the sun has to travel through the clouds. The clouds themselves don't diffuse the sun. What happens is the sun's light lights up the clouds, and the clouds themselves become the light source, which is much closer to us than the sun is, and the huge mass of clouds makes the light really diffused, compared to the sun, which is even larger, but is also much further away so appears smaller to us.

So what does this have to do with a Stofen or a Gary Fong? In those situations, if you are outdoors, it's useless because the light goes into them and to the subject, instead of from the flash directly. The size of the light does not change though (maybe by a few millimeters) and the distance from the light source to the subject certainly doesn't. So they would do nothing but waste batteries and cut range outside because the flash has impedence and needs to put out greater output to illuminate the subject the same amount.

Their use is indoors, when there are walls and ceilings, because the difference with Stofen and Gary Fong from direct flash is that direct flash is largely one directional (forward) whilst Stofens and gary fongs go forwards, sideways and backwards. But what is the point of that light going these random directions? It's because that sideways and backwards going light the bounces of side walls and back walls, creating a MASSIVE light source (the ENTIRE room). That's where they get their effect from, and that's how they work to provide "softer lighting". It's not because the flash has to go through the diffuser, it's because the diffuser sends light scattering everywhere so that the entire room becomes one huge flash because all the walls and ceilings are hit with light and reflect this light back to the subject.

So is this a good thing? Yes definitely, but what I argued originally was that you can do the same thing with the flash by itself for similar, if not better results. If you want soft, diffuse light, just bounce the flash behind you. The entire back wall or the ceiling behind you will become a massive light source that will then illuminate your subject like my shots above.

The key lesson is that when bouncing, you are not actually bouncing "light" you are illuminating the walls/ceilings so that the walls/ceilings emit the light and become the huge, massive lightsource that gives off softer light. Contraptions like the Stofen and Gary Fong do this too, but if you can do it with a bare flash just by turning the flash head to where you want the flash to come from, why waste time with them?

A bounce card is the most useless item ever. It is a tiny card to sends some light forward, whilst most of it goes to the ceiling. In other words, about 90% of the light is coming from above the subject, and 10% from in front of the subject. What a pointless exercise?! Just reverse the flash so that it is facing 45 degrees over your head or shoulder. Bang, instantly you have light hitting the subject from in front and from above...the bounce card becomes a waste of time.

One last gripe from me is those who point the flash straight up all the time to bounce off the ceiling. (Sometimes it's necessary, but you should never do it always...only in the right situations). Imagine you are in a studio using massive softboxes for portraits or fashion photography. Who in their right mind would put a softbox directly on the roof on top of the model's head? No one? Then why do we continue to bounce onto the ceiling and cause the light to come from above? your Flash rotates 360 degrees on the horizontal axis and 180 degrees on the vertical axis (well, most do), make sure to use it. I do use a ceiling bounce at times, e.g. for when I'm far away from the subjects because by using a ceiling bounce when you are far away from subjects, it's essentially like the light is coming from in front of the subjects if that makes sense.



Depending on the venue of course, I find I shoot 90% of my flash shots straight up or slighty backwards/over the shoulder. How about you Smorter?
Yeah same I'm 99% of the time over shoulder unless subjects are far away in which case I go straight up. Over the shoulder is quite hard on the flash though, both power wise, and physically as we always have to rotate it crazily :D

[Shaddsi]

When you guys say over the shoulder, what do you mean? If you are in the middle of a massive room and there is no wall to bounce, what would it bounce off?

[Smorter]

Over the shoulder the flash would usually be at 30 degrees from vertical, so it's more over the shoulder up to the ceiling, but the key would be the flash would hit the ceiling behind you

It would bounce off the ceiling. This method is superior the standard 90 degree ceiling bounce but it's trickier to use. It is much more hard on the flash range and power, and also if you don't get the angles right you'll have nasty harsh shadows on certain sides of the subject