was this wrong?

[jessika]

hi everyone,
as a returned favor for a friend, i took some weddinh photos for her. she didnt have enough money at the time of her wedding to get any professional looking ones done, and the few she did have taken by friends were pretty much a blur.

so i got her and her husband to dress up in their wedding gear, and we walked around brisbane for a whole day and took photos of them. they turned out really nice.

the problem was however, i took a 'friend' with me, who was wanting to do a wedding for some experience. at the end of the day, i told my friend i was going to give her a cd of the images. i did hear the other lasy say she was going to give her some pictures to, which i though was nice.

BUT .. i was talking to this other lady, and said im giving her a cd, if u want u can edit what u want, and ill give it to her all at once, after all she was my friend and i organised everything.

well, i recieved a text message the other night from this lady to say that she had spent an hour looking for my friends house, and gave her 20 6x8 prints. i had actually told her to wait, as i was dealing with her cos she was my friend and i had actually asked her not to do that.

she doesnt think that there is anything wrong with that. she came along for experience that was it. so it totally wrecked the suprise of the photos which i was supposed to be giving her.

does anyone else think that this is wrong?

at no time when i was over there the day before did she show my any of the pictures or tell me she was going over there to give her photos.

please comment

thanks,
jessika

[kimali]

Yes jessika,
i think you've been dudded! It seems that your friend woulda thought that by taking them over herself, she'd get the credit for all the work.
It's more of a moral issue, if i've read this right. You were the one doing the organising and arranging, so she should have let take the reins. They were your friends after all!

I'd feel a bit let down if it was me in your shoes:(
Just my 2cents worth is all!
Happy new year anyways!:)

[jessika]

yeah, thanks for that! im not the only one that thinks its wrong. i asked her about it and now are arent talking cos she thinks that she was in the right to do it. but not only that, it put more pressure on me to edit a whole cd in a week! i have other pictures that i have to edit before theirs but now cos they got her photos they are ringing me asking where the cd is. it for free for them to so its just stressin me out more to.

[bouncn]

I hate doing love jobs for people - it always seems like they're the jobs that end up taking the longest and being most difficult.

It's pretty unfair after you've spent all that time shooting for them to go and do that. Then to bug you for the edits to be done...

[jessika]

hi bouncn,
yeh i have now made it a rule to not do 'cheap' worf or favours for friends. but its not their fault really, it was the other lady that double crossed me that was the problem, in giving them the photos so soon i think they now expect me to get them done so quickly. if she hadnt have gone behind my back and done what she had done it would have been all good i think.

[bouncn]

I agree with you that it should have all been ok, but regardless it is still wrong to lose sight of the fact that it's a favour in the first place.

I've been doing graphic design work independently for the last 3 or 4 years and I have only just recently decided that I will no longer have a 'mates rates'.

I began designing a web site for a friend and we agreed with all work involved including unique design, hosting etc plus the type of site he wanted, that $500 was a very fair and cheap price. Since designing it for him (it's in production still) he has come back with millions of changes and different ideas and said to me "well I've been shopping around and someone else has quoted me $300 to do it, so I'm no longer really happy to go ahead with it for $500".

Cos they're friends you dont make a contract for the job and it always gets messy.

I felt like telling him where he could host his web site... but I'm too polite for that :p

[Photogenic]

Hi Jessika

I think it was a bit rude of the other person to go behind your back and give your friends the photos - mainly because you helped her out by allowing her to come along for experience doing weddings. She probably would have been better waiting until you were ready and then coming with you to give them when you gave them yours.

In saying that I think your friends would be hassling you for the photos regardless of whether the other person did this. I had a similar experience with a friends wedding and gave them a date of 1 month later for the photos which is reasonable considering I had a couple of bookings that month to do as well as their photos. I had them hassling me for the photos about 1 week later. Didn't matter that I explained that it wasn't as simple as just putting them on a disc as I had to edit them they still felt fine to ask because they were friends.

I ended up spending every night after work working on them to get them done and then a full day on the weekend for extra touch ups to get them to them in 2 weeks and they were still wanting more - will they all be printed for us?

I think friends expect more than what you would normally give simply because they are friends and if you let them get away with one thing then they automatically expect more. It probably hasn't helped that the other photographer has already given them photos but I can guarantee they would be hassling you for the photos even if this hadn't been done.

I try to avoid doing photos for friends and relatives because this always seems to happen. I hope you can work out the misunderstanding with the other person as it's not worth losing a friend over.

Linda

[Smorter]

I agree, working for friends and relatives ironically has many potential pitfalls, which is disappointing because you would think friends and relatives would act more reasonably, but often is not the case. It's especially disappointing when you put in all that hard work to have your plans upset by others :(

[JONTHELENS]

I agree its a bit out of order, not just that but the other photographer has made you look really bad, as the first thing your friends are going to remember and say ( to other people) is that "you were really slow but the other photographer was great, really fast"

I would try and not let it get to you and take it as a learning curve.

All the best for the new year.

jon

[jessika]

hi jonthelens,
YES! THANKYOU TO! you also get my exact point. im only 20, she is 43, so maybe she was trying to out do the younger one lol but your right it makes me look slow, and all she kept saying was 'im not in the wrong and i told her i was gonna give her pictures' but i tried to explain that i had no problem with that, just that she went out of her way behind my back to do it. thanks :)

[Chuckdup]

Does your second shooter know the people you took photos for?? If not, how did they get the contact or address details to deliver her images?? I'd be pissed, royally pissed.

[DG77]

Nothing good ever comes from doing freebies.
Photography must be one of the few industries where people are willing to work for nothing, I just can't understand it.
Would you rock up for work everyday at a Government job and do it for free ?, of course not, so why do people insist on doing weddings for $600 or worse still for free ?

Yes you got dudded by your friend, but at the same time you and your friend also dudded every photographer in the country who tries to make a living out of photography.
You should at the very least be charging for the prints if you're not going to charge for your time, and why the heck would you give her a CD with all the images when she hasn't paid you a cent ?

I wouldn't give away a full res CD of a wedding for anything less than 5k, I don't care what anyone says, there is no way I'm giving a client a CD of all the images for them to merrily print at the dodgey local corner store, or worse still on a $50 printer at home.

I understand that everyone has to start somewhere, but working for free is not the answer, hopefully this will be a valuable learning experience for you.

[Photogenic]

I have to agree with DG77- everyone starts out with weddings (and other photography) thinking I will just take the photos for free and give them the CD - then I have some shots for my folio etc - I know, I have done this myself. I did this for some friends to get some photos for my website when I first did it and gave them the disc - even though they were giving me their time I probably should have gone with something like time for prints like other photographers do with models and if they wanted more photos then they should have paid for them - but it's a learning experience we all have to go through (although if you can learn it from someone else it is better).

The thing is if you charge for it you are still able to use the photos for your folio, you have actually been paid for your time, and your friends get their photos.

I used to give the CD with my packages but don't do this anymore - now they have to pay - in fact I recently put up the prices of the Discs but think that I should increase the price of the wedding discs as there is usually more time involved in taking the photos that I am ripping myself off.

Remember you have to pay for the equipment and insurance to do these sorts of things and you don't get any of those for free. I immediately put my prices up after doing my first wedding - the amount of work involved and stress to get everything perfect is worth what is charged by other photographers - it is silly thinking that you will charge less for lowkey weddings etc as people still expect the earth no matter what they have paid.

As I mentioned before I don't think it was appropriate what the other person did but it has happened now, I guess in the future you know not to ask this person to help shoot any weddings with you as she will probably do the same thing.

In regards to your friend just tell her that you did them for free, you have paid clients who require their purchases before theirs and you will give them to her on this date when you previously told her you would. Too bad if she wants them earlier then she should have the decency to pay you for the work you did for her.
Linda

[jessika]

hi all,
yes i would never give a cd for free usually, but the got married in 2 weeks, she got pregnant and they had to keep her in the country, but i had also known her for a few year from school. i needed them as models i spose you could say, so yeah i just gave them the cd. thats why i have no problem taking my time, like someone said i have paying customers that require their things first. but its all learning, its now a rule of mine to not do friends favours or cheap work for people that **************** down my back and tell me its raining.

i had this one couple that were friends of friends cousins and they had their wedding plan, but i met them 2 weeks before the got married, only briefly at a family do and the next week they called me telling me that their photographer had cancelled on them and they were getting married in a few days and they have gone over their budget bla bla bla so i felt sorry for them, and cos they were friends of friends cousins, so i thought i would help them out.

i charged them $450 for a 12x12 photobook, 10 6x8 prints and 1 16x24 print. they then asked me for a cd so i said $150 .. i rocked uo to get the money and deliver the stuff and they said oh we havent got the money for the cd, we were just going to the bank, so STUPID me just wernt ah thats okay, just give it to **** and they can give it to me. huh, never saw the money. but they did winge cos they didnt think i took enough photos.

the wedding was on a rainy day, it was a commitment ceremony, and i late late arvo, i had told them we need to move quickly due to the rain and lack of light and if they want more photoa we need some better locations. no, all they wanted to do was get drunk.

so we went back to the restaurant where they had just a table book for a few of them and it was in a court yard and still raining. i got roughly 200 decent photos (for 2 hours work) but that want enough.

so no more freebies or favours and no taking people along with me. thats one of the reasons why i started my own business, the freedom of being my own boss and doing it my way.

[DG77]

I would say 99% of people doing wedding photography are not charging enough.
Even I don't charge enough for the time that is spent doing it, and my prices are much higher than most.
Since the advent of digital almost anyone can claim to be professional photographer and go out and do a wedding for $600.
When I quote someone 4 or 5k they wonder why it's going to cost so much more than Joe average with his 300D, who carries no PI or PL insurance and has no wages and super to pay, not to mention the million other expenses a business has to cover.

Most people don't realise that the average business needs to turn over $150k just to cover expenses. At $1000 a wedding, that's 150 weddings a year just to cover expenses before you even get to take home a buck !!
How many people do 3 weddings a week ?
Not too many I'm sure.


It's no wonder so many people go broke trying to make a dollar out of photography, they simply aren't charging enough money to survive.
For many people Photography starts out as a hobby then grows into a business, but the prices charged still remain much the same despite having all these additional costs to cover that weren't there when you were working for someone else at the same time who was paying your wages, super, annual leave, e.t.c. e.t.c.

As for the sob stories, how many other professions will do something for next to nothing when someone gives them a story about not being able to afford the service being offered ?
Be firm, either offer them some sort of payment plan, barter (They may be able to provide you with some sort of product or service to value of what you are offering - might be electrical goods, or free haircuts for 5 years :) - something that you would have to go out and buy anyway) or if it comes to it turn the job down.

You will get much more respect from people by sticking to your price and turning down a job than you will from doing it for next to nothing. When was the last time a plastic surgeon did a boob job for free because the patient reckoned she couldn't afford it, but really want it done anyway ?

At lot of people just try it on.
I sell a lot of signed sports memorabilia that we manufacture from my photos, and had someone offer me $100 for something I was selling for $180 recently.
I said no knowing full well it was of a player who sells really well.
He went off dissapointed, then came back later and paid full price.
If I'd given in I would have given him an $80 donation.

People try to screw you over in this industry as much as they can.
IF you're going to do something for free, tell them you won't charge to do the wedding, but instead charge per print for every print they want.
If you do a good job with the photos you'd be surpised at how much extra money you'll make, but it only works if you don't give them a single image for free.!!

[umajo]

i would be so pissed and you have every right to be also, next time you take a friend along make it qute clear about this sort of thing

[DaYi617]

Yeah, your "friend" did the wrong thing.

Sometimes during wedding shoots - depending on size and length of time I call in a second photographer. But the cotract he is under is that everything he shoots is my intellectual property and is under my business name. He has no contact what-so-ever with the customers (bride and groom) at all and his duties are very strictly written out and signed and agreed to.

First thing my business advisor told me was never to have mates rates or do anything for free - not even for family. OK, parents I do stuff for free, but that is it - everyone else no matter who they are gets charged the retail amount.

Less hassles. Doing stuff for free just causes more problems in the end and can lead to an expectation that you will always do stuff for free for their mates as well.

Written from the point of view of doing photography professionally that is.