Darkroom Equipment

[MistieWatters]

Where on earth can I find darkroom equipment and chemicals these days?!

[IanB]

In my shed. And the answer is no. The larger photo shops will still have some B+W stuff. I would think there would be lots of B+W darkroom stuff around; just get the word out you want it. Maybe a small ad in the local paper.

Cheers

[MDSimpson]

Oooh, Ian, very protective of your stuff, aren't you.
Must be hard to come by..

[LaurieMcArthur]

What do you want to do, Mel?

Develop B&W film?
Scan B&W film?
Print on genuine B&W paper in the wet darkroom?

Not sure, but I think the film you used is C41 developed. That is, it's a colour film derivative without the colour. They develop it in the machine with the colour film.

Real B&W film is way in front, in my view, even when scanned.

I would think you'd get everything you need on eBay for a song. I gave some of my stuff away. Glad it wasn't all taken off my hands. I still have my 120 enlarger and enough other stuff to get started again in a basic way.

Give us an idea what you have in mind and we can talk about what you'll need. Let's know if you see something on eBay and I'll check it out.

Oh! We could really get a B&W thing going here on Australian Photography Forum!

Les Porter (http://www.lesporter.com.au/Company Profile.html) in Newcastle has all the film, paper and chemicals you'll need. Really nice bloke. Price and service excellent. Does mail order to your credit card or send a cheque after delivery.

Les calls himself "The Photographer's Best Mate," and he is.

[skegger]

You can still get B&W chemistry and it's not that rare, you just have to know where to look. Go through the yellow pages and find photography supplies and call around. My local camera house has a limited supply but is happy to order things in for me.

I also visited this store in Melbourne: http://www.vanbar.com.au/ after being reccommended to go there by the folks at http://www.apug.org/ . Literally shelves to the ceiling of anything you need en masse.

It's simple to process your own black and white film at home without a darkroom (using a lightproof bag) but prints are another matter. You'll need a darkroom with good ventilation, a good quality enlarger and lens, a timer, access to running water and drainage (and disposal of fixer if you're concerned about silver environmental contamination) a line to hang wet prints, trays for chemicals, safelight and the list goes on.

Some labs may be happy to take your developed roll and make prints of them, then sleeve them nicely for you for a little under the cost of getting a normal colour roll processed and printed. Strike up a deal with your local lab. Don't pay for a whole roll of individual reprints, they'll charge you through the nose!

Or you could always scan your film ;)

[MistieWatters]

Checked out ebay this morning and got the poops with it because there was nothing on there except the developer tubs (one person was offering the developer itself though).

Laurie, in answer to your tirade of questions... All of the above ;)

You're right, the film I used needs to be c41 developed (but it still looks absolutely gorgeous and I love it!) but I'd like to do some "real" developing, get my hands dirty so to speak. Photography was an elective when I was in high school and at the time drama was my preference and was on at the same time as photography. Photography at school involved using the darkroom and I now seriously regret not doing photography (as I did in Year 11 LOL)

[LaurieMcArthur]

Two developing tanks available on eBay at the moment, but neither appear to be all there.

Keep away from them.

[LaurieMcArthur]

Several enlargers on eBay that look OK.

Trouble is that none of them has everything you need.

For the enlarger:

* Lens in good order.
* Negative carrier.
* Set of contrast filters.
* Timer switch.
* Easel.
* Focusing scope.
* Safelight.

For developing the paper prints:

*Trays marked for each chemical. You need trays about the right size. If they're too big you use too much chemical to cover the paper.
* Tongs marked for each chemical.
* Measuring jugs marked for each chemical. I used coffee jars in the early days.
* Chemicals - paper developer, stop bath and fixer. The chemicals should be 20 deg C. This is not critical for multigrade paper. I've always used double trays for the developer and run it at around 30 deg C.
* Sink and running water.
* Electric jug is handy.

For developing film:

* Paterson daylight developing tank with two spools. Be careful of bits missing with second hand. Daylight tank means you load the film in total darkness and then switch the light on to add the developer and do the job. If you have trouble achieving total darkness you can use a changing bag to load.
* Thermometer. Temperature of developer is critical.
* Timer. You can use the clock but a timer is much better.
* Measuring jugs marked for each chemical.
* Squeegee. I've used nappy liners. Ya know? Nappy liners!
* Chemicals - film developer, stop bath, fixer and photo flow.
* Sink and running water.
* Electric jug for hot water to warm the developer in winter and a milk bottle of ice to cool the developer in summer.

There are other incidentals such as a squeegee for the prints, clothes line and pegs, dodging and burning tools. All of these and more, you make, beg, borrow, steel or scrounge as you go. Oh! you'll need a bottle opener to open the film cassette, and a pair of scissors. Oh! And a notebook and pen. Always keep good notes and calculate your film developer quantities and times on paper, not in your head. Oh! And a magnifying glass.

Be sure you can bolt the door from inside if you're darkroom is in the house.

I've mostly used Agfa Rodinal film developer. Cheep, convenient and suits my style. In the few years since I was flat strap with the darkroom, a lot of supplies have ceased to be made by some companies. I can help with some research on what's available and suitable.

Ideally your darkroom should have an exhaust fan. But you don't want too much air moving around or you'll stir up dust.

A bar heater, strategically placed, in winter, is a help. Too much exhaust fan takes your heat away.

Suggest you start off with Multigrade resin coated paper, 5 x 7 inches.

Expectations:

If you follow the instructions carefully, there's no reason why your first roll of film should not be a success. However, be prepared for many disappointments as you get the feel for printing.

Pollution is your greatest enemy. Light pollution and chemical pollution.

The Three Rules of the Darkroom:

1) Cleanliness.

2) Cleanliness.

3) Cleanliness.

Got that?

So let's know how ya go with it, Mel.

[MistieWatters]

Hmmm. might have to wait until the kids go to school before I start this venture... I don't think I thought it through properly yet :eek:

[LaurieMcArthur]

might have to wait until the kids go to school before I start this venture

Might just have got that right, I reckon.

One of the big things about the digital revolution is that it puts top end artistic photographic practices within the grasp of ordinary people with a busy life and commitments, beside their art.

You can't just duck into the darkroom for half an hour, then save the changes till you come back again. Doesn't work like that.

My darkroom was in the old shed that has now been demolished, about twenty feet from the back veranda.

Well, this night, about eleven o'clock, I heard a great thump on the tin roof, not very high above my head. Frightened the living daylights out of me, having been working in the subdued light and silence for many hours.

Then I heard my wife's angry voice "Gorn! Gid out a there!"

I thought she must be chasing a stray cat or something, and it had landed on my roof.

I then found that she'd thrown a two litre milk bottle of ice from the veranda. Must have had something else in mind, I reckoned, but I couldn't stop.

[eSRods]

Well, looks like Mel has to wait for a while ;) so I will take over from here :D

Today I eceived a Patteron Tank with a reel that I bought on eBay. That's all I have at this stage. Or, I think I have bottle opener too :). I have never done it before and I cannot find anyone near me who can help me :( . I only want to develop B&W films for scanning. So I will get film developer tools that Laurie has listed. Thanks Laurie :)

Now the real problem ...
I had a look at Les Porters site and downloaded product list. And I am stuck there :( There are many different chemicals but I have no idea what to buy?
Can someone list chemicals that I need to buy?
Thank you.

Ed

[skegger]

I spent about $40 on a new tank and two reels at Michaels in Melbourne only to come back to Ballarat and get a Tank and two reels at the Salvos for $6.75! It was a smaller tank so I use it over the one I bought new because it uses less volume of chemical. Also got a bulk film loader at the Salvos for the same price.

[MistieWatters]

Hijack away Ed!

Laurie, I was laughing so loud at your story my husband actually paid attention to me long enough to ask what I was laughing at!

[LaurieMcArthur]

OK. When I started out I had minimal gear and a pretty tight budget. There is best practice and there's what you can get away with. Let's work on something in between these extremes. These are not the only suitable chemicals but this method will get you started and you may decide to stick with it.

Developer: Agfa Rodinal. 125ml. (not Rodinal Special) You'll need a 25ml medicine measure to measure it out. Use the 1+25 dilution.

The developer develops the latent image caused by the light.

Stop Bath: Ilford. ILFOSTOP STOPBATH 500ML. 500 ml of this will last you for years. He doesn't seem to have a smaller bottle. You can get away without using stopbath if you give the film several good rinses in water between development and fixing.

The stopbath imediately stops the action of the developer and also protects the fixer from the developer. Developer is alkiline and fixer is acid. Stopbath is acetic acid as in vinegar.

Fixer: Ilford. HYPAM FIXER 1LTR

The fixer removes the undeveloped silver from the film, allowing the negative image to appear.

Wash: You don't have to buy this. After fixing, empty out the tank and nearly fill with water. Invert five times and tip out. Fill again, inverting 10 times. Repeat with 20 inverts and empty. You can then take the lid off the tank if you wish.

Wetting Agent: ILFOTOL WETTING AGENT 250ML. This seems to be the only wetting agent that Les stocks. From memory this is the one I was having trouble with. Watermarks on the negatives. So I changed to Kodak Photoflow. You could ask Les about it. Alternatively IanB or OldNick may comment.

You can get away without this step.

After washing, squeegee the film very carefully. The emulsion is very soft at this stage and you'll leave tramlines the full length of your film if there is any grit present. I use nappy liners between my fingers. If your skin is nice and soft, you can use your fingers. Wet the squeegee first in the wetting agent solution, and wring out.

Hang the film in a dust free environment to dry for maybe half an hour or more. Be sure the film is perfectly dry before you touch it.

Les Porter really is "The Photographer's Best Mate." You can phone him or send an e-mail. He's always good for a chat.



Before you start to load your precious film in the spiral, have a practice in the light with a short piece of unwanted colour film.

The spiral must be perfectly dry. Give it a go with a hair dryer but don't get it too hot.

Give yourself a second chance, should something go wrong in the loading, by having handy some sort of light tight bag or box that you can put the film in while you put the light on and work it out.

Set everything out in order on the bench and practice finding it in the dark.

Practice cutting the end of the film off square and cutting small champhors on the leading corners.

Dark means dark. You've got to be able to stand there in the dark for five minutes and then wave your hand in front of your eyes and not see a thing.

So that's about it, Mate, in a nutshell. Give us a hoy if you need any more details filled in. I'll be away for a few days from Sunday morning so you may have to wait till Wednesday for a reply. But there are others.

[MistieWatters]

A lot of valuable information in that post Laurie... bookmarked!

[LaurieMcArthur]

I should have mentioned that with Rodinal, you can get away with using the kitchen thermometer because it only needs to go in clean water.

You need only about 300ml of water with a small amount of developer added if you're using Rodinal.

So get a four litre icecream bucket and get it three quarters full of tap water. Add boiling water a little at a time till the kitchen thermometer tells you the water is 20 deg C. Use some of that water to mix your developer.

If it's high summer and the tap water is too hot, get a plastic bottle of ice from the freezer and place it in the container of tap water till the temperature drops to 20 deg C.

A side benefit of frequently measuring the temperature of the tap water is that when you find the spring time water temperature has reached 22 deg C, you'll know it's time to sow water melons. Thought you'd all want to know that.

[eSRods]

Thanks very much Laurie. You are a legend.
I copied and printed for my reference. :)

I will get those chemicals from Les and do a bit of run around to get other tools tomorrow.

I will be back asking more questions :D

Cheers
Ed

[eSRods]

A side benefit of frequently measuring the temperature of the tap water is that when you find the spring time water temperature has reached 22 deg C, you'll know it's time to sow water melons. Thought you'd all want to know that.

:):):)
Well, good to know that.
cheers
Ed

[eSRods]

I spent about $40 on a new tank and two reels at Michaels in Melbourne only to come back to Ballarat and get a Tank and two reels at the Salvos for $6.75! It was a smaller tank so I use it over the one I bought new because it uses less volume of chemical. Also got a bulk film loader at the Salvos for the same price.

I paid my paterson system 4 tank with a reel for $27.50 including postage. I need at least one more reel so I will look for second hand shops or salvos.
:):)
cheers
Ed

[nigel]

After washing, squeegee the film very carefully.


Squeegees!!!!! :eek:

I would not be touching a squeegee with a 40 foot barge pole!! :eek:

Sorry Laurie but this is one item I would not be telling others to buy.
Spend the extra on some good photoflow.
Photoflow is really just detergent, designed to cut the surface tension so the water bleeds away.
Watch the amount of bubbles your making too, this can be a problem, but only when it looks like a bubble bath.

If you do use a squeegee, I used to make sure it was super clean, and give it a bath in hot water (softer blades)before I used it on the film with almost no pressure, just enough to remove most of the water.


Mistie: try contacting your local photographic club.
You might find a member wanting to get rid of their gear.
Also hit the local library, plenty of books on photography and dark room work. You should find some thing there to help with some questions, or put your mind at rest.

[MistieWatters]

I would not be touching a squeegee with a 40 foot barge pole!! :eek:



The next line says he uses nappy liners as his squeegees... they are very soft (mum of three...)

[eSRods]

I am still in the dark (Pardon the pun) :(. Could someone enlight me please.
Spent a few hours searching for internet and could not find my answer.
See my Paterson reel below. It's set for 135 format but I need 120 format. How to extend the reel?????:confused::confused::confused:
Or do I have 135 format only reel???
cheers
Ed

[nigel]

You should be able to pull the two halves of the spiral apart.

It will twist one way and un-lock, pull it up (apart) a little bit and close (look for small hole in center of the shaft, this aligns the two halves), this is 120 format size.

[skegger]

I am still in the dark (Pardon the pun) :(. Could someone enlight me please.
Spent a few hours searching for internet and could not find my answer.
See my Paterson reel below. It's set for 135 format but I need 120 format. How to extend the reel?????:confused::confused::confused:
Or do I have 135 format only reel???
cheers
Ed

Here's a guide on photo.net with instructions.

http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/00CcPY

[eSRods]

Done.
Thanks Nigel and Skegger.

[LaurieMcArthur]

Well, I'm pleased to see ya got that sorted out without me.

[eSRods]

Well, I'm pleased to see ya got that sorted out without me.

There's no shortage of people willing to help, Laurie ;)
Welcome back anyway.

I made order through Les Porter.
Les uses agfa agepon wetting agent and he has small bottle for $4.00.
I will get this but have you had experience with this product?

cheers
Ed

[LaurieMcArthur]

My memory is hazy about which wetting agent I had trouble with. It may have been that one. Maybe I made a mistake and mixed it too strong. Agfa products are excellent as are all the known brands. I solved the problem by changing brands.

At the most basic, all you need is developer, water bath, fixer, then wash in water. Get the worst of the water off without scratching the emulsion. Hang to dry. Use some heat if you wish but not a blower as it stirs up the dust which sticks to the emulsion.

A friend hangs the film straight out of the wetting agent and puts a bucket under it to catch the drips.

Water marks may be a problem if your water is a bit hard. That's where wetting agent becomes necessary.

The water in Bega is pretty good. Of course, you'll all be so pleased to know that the Bega water won a state wide competition a few years back for the best tasting water. Now, that's made ya day, hasn't it!

[skegger]

If you're really pedantic (like me) use distilled water. You only need a drop of wetting agent. Dilution for the Illford one is 1 + 250. It comes in a 1 litre bottle. That's 251L!

[eSRods]

I will try agepon for now and I will change it if I don't like it.


Water marks may be a problem if your water is a bit hard. That's where wetting agent becomes necessary.

The water in Bega is pretty good. Of course, you'll all be so pleased to know that the Bega water won a state wide competition a few years back for the best tasting water. Now, that's made ya day, hasn't it!

So, Laurie, you have to use wetting agent.
I thought hard water taste better.;);):rolleyes::rolleyes:
Bega is indeed a nice place.
I've been there a couple of times and I enjoyed the scenery and fish & chips.
We ate the fish & chips with a bottle water though :( - bummer.
cheers
Ed

[eSRods]

If you're really pedantic (like me) use distilled water. You only need a drop of wetting agent. Dilution for the Illford one is 1 + 250. It comes in a 1 litre bottle. That's 251L!
I don't think I am pedantic :rolleyes::rolleyes:
I am getting a small bottle so won't be a big loss.
cheers
Ed

[LaurieMcArthur]

Well Ed, I really don't mind whether you use wetting agent or not. And use distilled water for your final wash if you so desire. You're going to find out that there are far more critical things:

1) Is your darkroom or changing bag perfectly dark? Doesn't matter so much with printing on photographic paper because it has an ISO of about ISO 6. But when you're dealing with film at ISO 100 or ISO 400 or maybe much higher, it's got to be dark. You only get one chance with your roll of film.

2) Developer temperature, dilution, time and agitation all correct? Not much room for error here. Only one chance.

3) It's not easy to get 120 film on the spool in the dark and if it jumps the tracks you can have problems with uneven development. Got to get these things right or your sunk.

4) Don't scratch the emulsion, get finger marks on it or pick up dust while it's still soft.

5) Don't pollute your chemicals or equipment. Be sure everything is washed before putting it away so that it will be clean and dry next time.

6) Watch out for stray light from a heater, pilot light, wrist watch, static electricity from a nylon shirt or whatever.

These and many other issues can ruin your roll of film in an instant. Wetting agent and distilled water are of lesser consequence.

I used to moonlight at a low quality local newspaper before it was swallowed up by the Bega District News. They paid me a flat rate to develop the films and print the photos so I'd hit the darkroom running and go for it. It was a pretty cheep skate organization and the darkroom was pretty basic.

I might have six rolls to process so I'd get two, three roll tanks going at once. Use the same fixer for the films and paper. Mix it double strength to hurry things along.

It was just developer, water, fix, water, rubber squeegee, dry with heat.

Mix the juice for the paper while the film was drying. As soon as one roll was dry, cut the film and do a proof sheet. That's a contact sheet of all the negs on one sheet of 8 x 10 inch paper. Shove that in front of the editor to mark what he wanted and keep going with the proof sheets. By the time I'd finished the proof sheets I'd have plenty of prints to get on with.

No stop bath for the paper. Just a quick water bath and drop it in the fixer where it would stay for anything from 15 sec to half an hour. Then into a tray under the tap that overflowed in the old enameled, cast iron basin. When there were half a dozen or a dozen prints in the wash I'd squeegee them and hang to dry.

I'd never do a test print. Just read the negative on the baseboard, no easel, and whack a sheet of paper in about the right spot, cover with the half tone screen and hit the timer. I'd play a little game with it. I could often get five prints in a row without wasting a sheet of paper, and without wasting any time on a second try. I'd average about 12 prints to the hour, once I got going.

It was as rough as guts but turned out alright. But there are just those few things that you must have control over and must get right.

Mind you, I'd never work like that in my own darkroom.

[eSRods]

Wow, excellent advice as usual, Laurie.
Very meaningful story too.

Did you ask how was my dark room?
Holy cow :eek: I don't have one :eek::eek:
Busy getting chemicals and other gears but I've totally forgotten.
I guess it's going to be a busy weekend.
I have a windowless bathroom and a space under the stair case. One of them will be light sealed.
What's the best way to check light tightness?

cheers
Ed

[nigel]

What's the best way to check light tightness?

Sit in the room for 5+ minutes and see if you can see!!

Look into all the corners, under doors, any where there might be a poor seal against light.

If you can't see a thing in 10 minutes, it's good!! :D

[eSRods]

If you can't see a thing in 10 minutes, it's good!! :D

Thanks Nigel.
Next time when I empty my bowel I will turn off the light and see :D
cheers
Ed

[LaurieMcArthur]

Nigel's about got it.

Have a tube of black silicon in your hand. When a few tiny chinks of light appear, remember where they are, turn on the light and cover them. Repeat many times.

Your first few rounds of repair may need to involve some cardboard. Silicon will hold it in place.

Of course, you wouldn't be that rough in the bathroom but it's different under the stairs.

A changing bag may be the go for you.